ARE STANCES IMPORTANT, AND IS CHI AN OUT-DATED TERM?

Baguamonk1 suggests that stances are unimportant in Chinese martial arts but we in Shaolin Wahnam regard them as very important. The picture above shows Alex, James, Hwan King and Roeland practice the Bow-Arrow Stance during a Special Shaolin Kungfu Course



The following discussion is reproduced from the thread Dispelling Ignorance and Untruths: A Case Study of Baguamonk's Posts started in the Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Forum on 25th September 2006.



As instructors for Shaolin Wahnam it is our duty to show our students and visitors where they are being misinformed. .
Sifu Andrew Barnett


Sifu Michael Durkin
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
28th September 2006

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

I have clarified most of my posts, I don't think there is a need.

In the thread on The benefits of Internal Force are not only for combat , Baguamonk1 made a hasty post about the biological difference between rocks and grass. Vanessa kindly stepped in and pointed out the ignorances. She was kind enough to describe Baguamonk1's writings as "your words are unclear and could be considered untrue", which is really a nicer way of saying your words are ignorant. Besides that, a spade is still a spade. Vanessa, like many other members of this forum, have taken time and effort in providing clear explanations to back up their claims in light of information that they have seen as unclear, untrue, confused etc. This is all in effort to dispel ignorance, not to pick on anyone.

Many of Baguamonk1's other posts are still unclear. I think in light of Baguamonk1s own admittance else where on this forum that he started acting like an ass , I think it would be wise for him to listen to others who may help him not act like an ass. This thread provides an opportunity for Baguamonk1 to do that, but please take a moment to listen to other opinions, that are worth something if you give them a chance instead of a knee-jerk reaction post.

Mollie for example, made an excellent post in this thread which I think many readers can benefit a lot from. Being ignorant of something isn't a bad thing , we're all ignorant of something. But if we act like an ass we are only denying ourselves the opportunity to learn about our ignorance. This would be making the problem worse, not better.

__________________
Michael Durkin
Shaolin Wahnam England, Manchester
http://www.shaolinwahnam.co.uk


Baguamonk1
USA
28th September 2006


I cannot believe what I'm hearing. Again, what I have said taken out of context filled in with your own commentary to further support your statements. It really not only looks desperate, but pathetic. You should probably find a more creative way of discrediting me because you are making yourself look even worse.

I never said Chi was an exotic term for body movement, body mechanics is only one aspect of any martial art. I said Chi was an outdated term and it was used to generalize various processes in the body , because there was a lot more than simply one. I also mentioned that for actually TRAINING these methods, it was ok because one should not confound the mind with too many thoughts, in methods that require you to "feel" and be "thoughtless" I never said it didn't exist, again, you are "spinning" things in your favor, taking bits and pieces of my posts completely out of context , when the rest of my explanation is describe in that very same post, or in another one.

Thinking they are myths? I have never said that, and I have never "implied" that they were liars. Read again. (wow that comment is just sad).

I never said that my a teacher's opinions were wrong, or that I did not show him respect, the point of that post was to show that everyone has their own path and values when it comes to martial arts. You also say "could not apply stances in combat himsef..." Right where is the proof. Why don't you show me proof of you fighting a guy, no gear, no rules, and show me some classical patterns in action . Not the slow, 1-2-3 step stuff you show in your instructional videos. I have also stated in that thread just how valuble stances are. It was a way of simply pointing out that not evevery situation is going to call for using a picture perfect stance, especially against someone who is not a gong fu exponent. If their skill is below yours, you don't need to. For example, when doing push hands, when someone pushes you, you only use Lu and Peng as much as you are pushed. If you Lu (or move your waist too much) too much, or overextend yourself, then it will be taken advantage of.

I straight away discarded stances, and said bruce lee did too? What the hell are you talking about!? I never said that. I said Bruce Lee's understanding of stances was incomplete because Wing Chung stances and patterns are way different than most shaolin stances out there! Wing Chung uses alot of its stances as "Ready" postures, while Shaolin uses them more as transitional stances.

Everything you have said is a spin, or a lie of my commentaries. I never said stances, or chi, nor any of that was useless. I merely provided other points of view on describing the same things!

And I was talking about the "Street" tricks that are common in Chi gong tricks!! I was not talking about any of your precious students or teachers, I also said that real practicioners of Hard Chi gong do NOT NEED tricks! They have the real deal! A VAST majority of tricks out there, especially by wushumonks ARE tricks . Look at DooWai with his "fingerrub chi manifestation" everyone knows he is using a solution and keeping it in his fingers. I am talking about charlatans, NOT the real deal. And yet you use my words out of context AGAIN and fill it in with your own commentary.

Everything you have quoted and filled in with a rebuttal is ridiculous. Putting words in my mouth, from just flat out misrepresenting my words.There is not even need for a rebuttal on half the things you misquoted....Because you just fill it in with your own words and commentary."This is what he means!! See he is wrong!!!"

Good job man, at this "Case study," "not attacking.." Right....Maybe if 90% of your quotes weren't completely taken out of context when you put in your own words and interpretation of what I meant, I would bother more. But to anyone with a remote bit of experience or intelligence, who can go back and read my posts, and then look at your commentaries on them, will know the hypocrisy in all of these "attacks."

If supernatural abilities were possible and easily done they would not be considered "supernatural" would they? Everything that is done in chi gong is not supernatural, at all. I was clearly speaking about outrageous claims from outrageous charlatans. Good job man. Why don't you actually go to the respective threads and make a worthwile reply or argument? This is cheap. So far all I have seen is accusations and attacks, seemed to be design so that you can pat yourself in the back, and sleep at night. It shouldn't bother you so much of my ignorance and obvious lack of knowledge or experience was evident..should it? I don't think anyone would even pay attention to me. Maybe if you represented my posts in a less biased and fair manner, I would actually try and this more seriously. But you have shown me nothing but innacurate representations of my posts.

Keep saying "lack of clarity," it really helps justify the true intentions of your posts. More like "lack of following our beliefs." When I say something you don't agree with, the excuse is "lack of clarity" and "ignorance." Ignorance according to who? You? Are you really that afraid that the pedestals you have built will come crumbling down? That was never my purpose here, all I did was provide opinions and insight. But apparently you have to keep people in "check?" or something, like your students are something to manipulate and ensure their "growth" and "development.." Interesting choice of words too. I think most of them have the intelligence and experience to know the difference from "ignorance" and "opinion." There are plenty of people who would say that your view, or your outlook on these things is "ignorant." Clearly you don't care, why should I care then?? Especially if your ways of showing this "ignorance" is completely misleading. You are fighting things you don't agree with, by using the very instruments that you claim to be fighting. Misleading, manipulation of words. Maybe I should dedicate a thread to Jordan's lack of "clarity" on my posts, because clearly he is manipulating them and spinning them in his favor.


Baguamonk1 considers "chi" as an out-dated term, but we in Shaolin Wahnam considers "chi" as the very essence of life, and hence we cultivate it in all our arts, namely chi kung, Shaolin Kungfu and Wahnam Taijiquan. The picture above shows a group of Spanish students practicing chi kung during an Intensive Chi Kung Course in Malaysia.


Andrew Barnett Sifu Andrew Barnett
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland
25th September 2006

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

Again, what I have said taken out of context filled in with your own commentary to further support your statements.

It is very clear that Jordan is using your own words within the context they were written . By adding his commentary, he is helping others with less clarity to understand the connotations of your words. It is very easy for you to pop up and say --- "I may have said that but it wasn't meant that way -- you just don't get it". However, if that were the case and you indeed do have a high level of mental clarity, how can it be that your own words can be so far from what you mean to say?

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

I never said Chi was an exotic term for body movement, body mechanics is only one aspect of any martial art. I said Chi was an outdated term and it was used to generalize various processes in the body, because there was alot more than simply one.

Chi is an outdated term, you say. That, in itself, is a joke and quite ignorant (whoops -- that word again). Just because you do not understand what Chi is and what it can achieve, isn't it foolish to then just push it to one side saying that it is an outdated way of generalisaing various body processes. You are also making some very big assumptions about how the concept of Chi actually came about.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

I also mentioned that for actually TRAINING these methods, it was ok because one should not confound the mind with too many thoughts, in methods that require you to "feel" and be "thoughtless"

I'm sorry, but this is a clear statement that you do not speak from experience of training Chi (or at least not effectively).

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Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

You also say "could not apply stances in combat himsef..." Right where is the proof. Why don't you show me proof of you fighting a guy, no gear, no rules, and show me some classical patterns in action. Not the slow, 1-2-3 step stuff you show in your instructional videos.

LOL. You have watched so much of our material yet you cannot see . Our video material is not, and was never intended to be, instructional. We have offered many explanations of why we do what we do, yet you just skip over them. You have provided no proof (using your words) that you can even form a fist let alone peform any Kung Fu (whether patterns, forms, fighting or whatever) whilst we have published so much. Personally, I think it's your turn to offer supportive evidence.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

I have also stated in that thread just how valuble stances are.

Maybe you said that. But from your remaining comments, you obviously don't believe it to be true.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

It was a way of simply pointing out that not evevery situation is going to call for using a picture perfect stance, especially against someone who is not a gong fu exponent. If their skill is below yours, you don't need to.

As I said in my previous sentence, you negate the importance of stances with your own next sentence. Why on earth would you throw away the advantages of stances just because you perceive your opponent to be less skilfull. This is a classic case of under-estimating your opponent and again shows your lack of practical experience.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

I said Bruce Lee's understanding of stances was incomplete because Wing Chung stances and patterns are way different than most shaolin stances out there! Wing Chung uses alot of its stances as "Ready" postures, while Shaolin uses them more as transitional stances.

The form of some of the stances in Wing Chun and some other Shaolin styles may be different but this does not make them different per sé. Stances are used for ready postures and transition in both styles. But this is a minute portion of their use. This is, again, ignorance --- i.e. you do not know.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

I was not talking about any of your precious students or teachers, ...... Look at DooWai with his "fingerrub chi manifestation" everyone knows he is using a solution and keeping it in his fingers. I am talking about charlatans, NOT the real deal.

At least you realise that Shaolin Wahnam considers both its instructors and students percious. This is the main reason we spend so much time helping them to understand what is real and what is false.

I wonder how many people noticed your strategy in the above. By attempting to redirect attention to Grandmaster Doo Wai, you attempted to relieve the attention you feel you are receiving. I will let Grandmaster Doo Wai respond to your comments if he feels them worthy of commenting. I am quite sure he will do so, if he sees fit, in another thread though.

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Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

Good job man, at this "Case study," "not attacking.." Right....Maybe if 90% of your quotes weren't completely taken out of context when you put in your own words and interpretation of what I meant, I would bother more. But to anyone with a remote bit of experience or intelligence, who can go back and read my posts, and then look at your commentaries on them, will know the hypocrisy in all of these "attacks."

Ah, the old trick. Nice try.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

If supernatural abilities were possible and easily done they would not be considered "supernatural" would they? Everything that is done in chi gong is not supernatural, at all.

Excellent. Something we agree upon.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

Why don't you actually go to the respective threads and make a worthwile reply or argument?

Redirection again. That would dilute the usefullness of Jordan's posts. By bringing it all under one roof (so to speak), he is making it so much easier for others to follow what is going on. If you like, you can add some links to other posts to show where Jordan is so wrong.

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Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

It shouldn't bother you so much of my ignorance and obvious lack of knowledge or experience was evident..should it? I don't think anyone would even pay attention to me.

As has been said before, you post so much, people do pay attention to you. And as instructors for Shaolin Wahnam it is our duty to show our students and visitors where they are being misinformed .

:

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

Keep saying "lack of clarity," it really helps justify the true intentions of your posts. More like "lack of following our beliefs." When I say something you don't agree with, the excuse is "lack of clarity" and "ignorance."

Another nice strategy attempt. Ignorance is being used to mean "lack of knowledge". Lack of clarity is being used to mean "lack of clarity" as your last posts have shown. Again --- calling a spade a spade.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

There are plenty of people who would say that your view, or your outlook on these things is "ignorant." Clearly you don't care, why should I care then??

Yes, there are many who disagree with us. We do care. We care that misinformation is being spread as our declared aim is to disseminate information of true Shaolin Arts as we know them. Why you care? Maybe you should answer that question.

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Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

Maybe I should dedicate a thread to Jordan's lack of "clarity" on my posts, because clearly he is manipulating them and spinning them in his favor.

That would be most entertaining I'm sure. By the way, for those that didn't notice, this is another attempt at redirection.

Andrew

_________________
Andrew Barnett
Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland
www.shaolin-wahnam.ch

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