DUTY TO POINT OUT MIS-INFORMATION FOR BENEFIT OF STUDENTS

As Baguamonk1 advises in our own Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Forum that kungfu techniques need not be picture-perfect, Shaolin Wahnam instructors feel it their duty to remind students that in our school every kungfu movement should be a masterpiece. This picture, culled from a random video recording during the UK Summer Camp 2006 , shows an example of students using picture-perfect forms during sparring.


The following discussion is reproduced from the thread Dispelling Ignorance and Untruths: A Case Study of Baguamonk's Posts started in the Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Forum on 25th September 2006.



"Nevertheless, wishing you well should not be confused with my duty as a Shaolin Wahnam instructor to dispel ignorance and untruths for the benefits of hundreds of our students as well as other forum members reading this discussion forum, especially when you wrote as if you were an authority, yet you posts contain a lot of ignorance and untruths.".
Sifu Jordan Francis



Bong Sau
USA
29th September 2006


My humble observation I am an outsider whom the providers of this forum has graciously allowed to observe and participate. I am also a late comer to martial arts and Chinese medicine, still very much in training. However I have a lot of other training, significant professional experience, and perhaps more important, real life experience.

As always I offer my observations with the utmost respect.

There are many paths to enlightenment. No human being has ever or will ever travel anywhere near the full spectrum of those paths. Even together our energy is no more than a minute fraction of the energy of the universe.

I am greatly impressed by most of what I read on this board.

I am greatly troubled by the apparent need to disrespect BaguaMonk. Again, I am an outsider which may offer me an advantage in terms of perspective.

If BaguaMonk has been disrespectful, I have missed that disrespect completely. Quite the contrary, BaguaMonk has offered us, free and without charge, his time and energy and life experience. What could he give to anyone that is of more value?

Even the most strident criticism here concedes that BaguaMonk has intended no harm or disrespect.

Consider this: if the Shaolin Wahnam Institute and its principals are so powerful, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, then it and its principals have no need to bootstrap their message on the alleged foibles of BaguaMonk or anyone else.

I have seen this act before, singling someone out this way and then telling that person it is being done for their own good. Please, let me tell you, you are not keeping company with the enlightened on this one.

I enjoy your board. Thank you for allowing me to be here.


Anthony Korahais Sifu Anthony Korahais
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam USA
23nd April 2006

Dear Bong Sau,

I appreciate your input, and particularly the presentation. Here is my response.

If BaguaMonk has been disrespectful, I have missed that disrespect completely.

If I had the time, I would compile a list of the things that Baguamonk has said about us on other forums. Suffice it to say that he was less that polite. Some of the firm responses he's getting here are due not only to what he's said on this forum, but what he has said on other forums.

I have seen this act before, singling someone out this way and then telling that person it is being done for their own good. Please, let me tell you, you are not keeping company with the enlightened on this one.

We are not doing it for him, although he may also benefit. We are doing it for our students .

Quite the contrary, BaguaMonk has offered us, free and without charge, his time and energy and life experience. What could he give to anyone that is of more value?

Personally, I think that offering a base amount of respect is more valuable.

If I remember correctly, you're an experience martial artist, Bong Sau. Allow me to offer you an analogy. During sparring, I typically respond with the same amount of force that is being directed at me. If my partner comes on strong, I respond strong. If my partner goes slowly, I go slowly. What we're doing here is no different. You might think that this is an "eye for an eye" mentality, but it's not. No one is getting hurt here, or in real life sparring. It's just a way of giving your partner feedback.

If Baguamonk thinks that we're coming on strong, then I would suggest that he look more closely at his own actions (here and elsewhere) for an explantion.

Respectfully,

__________________
Anthony Korahais
Shaolin Wahnam Forida
http://www.FlowingZen.com/

"Do not believe in something simply because you have heard it repeated, nor in traditions just because they¡¯ve been handed down for many generations, nor in rumors, nor in scriptures, nor in something based on conjecture, nor in an axiom, nor in specious logic, nor in a previous bias, nor in another¡¯s seeming ability. Instead, after careful observation and analysis, when you yourself know that something is wise, that it will lead to benefit and happiness for one and all, then accept it and live up to it." The Buddha , from The Kalama Sutta .


Another issue in the debate concerns mental clarity, which is an important benefit we in Shaolin Wahnam cherish and cultivate. Baguamonk1 gives advice in our Shaolin Wahnam Discussion like an authority, but his posts show a lack of mental clarity. An example of such a post can be found immediately below. On the other hand, the picture above shows students at a regional chi kung course in Portugal enjoying Zen, one of many methods we use to develop mental clarity.


Baguamonk1
USA
30th September 2006

Good luck

Oh wow.

The kind gracious people who have contacted me are right- This is beating a dead horse , and it is neither worthy my time, nor yours. There would be no need for any of this if people weren't so insecure in what they do. Pretentious use of words "Case study," "This is for the students," "It is not attacking," "Your cup is full, you will never be worthy of my master!!"etc. Wow, pat yourselves on the backs, you guys are heroes!!! It is almost like you are playing some sort of roleplaying game, noble, confucious, teachers who have to save their students from the evil influences from the outside world. This "holier than thou" attitude gets old, as if it puts you above everything else, and gives you the right to call others ignorant. Sorry but covering up your intentions with this attitude is down-right insulting. Why don't you just flat out say what you mean? The only reason I have even become defensive, or rude is because of how ridiculous it has become. This does not further help in the clarity department, it only makes it worse. Put words in my mouth, commentaries of one or two sentences from some of my posts, etc. Wow, you really have "disproved" alot...Considering almost nothing of what you claim can be proven anyways (not yet).

I was actually thinking of making my own thread, putting quotes from various members of how "ignorant" it is, or even commenatries made on my own quotes that I thought to be "ignorant." I was even going to take this thread seriously and quote myself, to counter your own commentaries for my other quotes. But then I realized how long it would take, and how worthless it would be. It would just keep on going, and I don't see it going anywhere.

Nobdoy has to agree with me, they can do whatever they wish. But bringing yourself down to this level, to "Save your students" , in the guise of some honorable "case study" is what frustrated me the most. If you don't, will your students world, and yours alike, truly come crumbling down? Are the skies going to fall? You know, you could just tell me to tone down the posting, or to not post at all, or even ask me to be nicer, or whatever it is you wish to say. You could say "Hey we don't agree with you, and we have to keep our students views on a tight leash.." But I have seen nothing but condescending attitudes and responses (well some people were nice), reeking of insecurity. Of course its going to be a gang-bang, its a forum of people from the same school, same styles and methods. The way everybody talks, and acts the same is also kind of scary. As if this is the only true way to attain gong fu skills or mastery, I have even heard that 90% of stuff out there isn't real Shaolin, and Wahnam is the real deal! I think there are a vast majority of Shaolin practicioners who not only do not agree with this, but have the same opinion reserved for Wahnam.

I do think Chi is sort of an outdated term, but that does not mean it is not effective . It is only outdated in the manner that many modern-day martial artists, and researchers alike have trouble with this word. Or more the concepts it brings to the table, their understanding of life, and the modern world around us is different, sometimes it requires other methods of explaining. If you want to help someone..you can't always come saying things the way you learned them, or others before you. It can just as easily alienate them. Sometimes it is wise to try and fit your words to theirs. And "chi" is an easy enough to understand term, but not for the modern skeptics. Even they, just like any human being, are worthy of learning these arts.

And again my words taken out of context. Clearly you believe a master should assume picture-perfect stances when any situation arises, even if the person is less skilled, and the situation does not call for it. What if someone comes charging at you, and you can easily step sideways, and push him into the ground?? Clearly the man's skill was below him, why would he have to exert any more effort than this?? I am not saying to show sloppy footwork..I am simply saying if the situation doesn't call for it, it doesn't need to be used at the appropiate time, and if it does it can be "perfect" without being "picture perfect." How many times have we seen Taiji masters uproot their tuishou partner with ease, without the need for barely any visible movement, or "deep stances..."Many..It does not have to look like a Shaw Brothers film for it to be effective, or known as gong fu. If someone throws a jab I can shift my weight back to avoid it..I don't have to retract into a deep gong bu stance every time a jab is thrown..There is a difference between "posing" and actually effectively using something. I never said stances were useless, in fact I am a huge advocator of them.Take a shape, or form, to perfectly counter and fit the shape and form of your opponent. Even if it is a subtle one, such as the shape of your opponents intention.

I believe some have even revealed their intentions, they are bitter perhaps for what has been said in the past on other forums, is this the main motivation? If so, then I will leave you with an apology. I did not mean to insult or harm anyone's fragile minds, or ego's. I guess I gave into these ridiculous attitudes, and that is my fault. I allowed it to get worse.

It is fantastic, that even after someone is gone you continue to insult, and use them for examples to the supreme "superirority" of Wahnam kung fu. Yes, you have "won" again...Put it on the victory notch belt, because I am leaving. Clearly topics like this, and comments like the ones made previously of other people, are not made to be constructive or helpful at all, but rather some pretentious show of superiority, masked with the intentions of "regulating the development of students." This in itself is a red flag, when teachers have to shape the minds of the young, and fickle to discredit opinions of others who's views don't cling to their own. "We are only helping,"I can't tell if its for the business/money, or something else. Whatever it is, the attitude sure does throw people off. It is even more interesting that all the teachers/moderators have to get together, discuss in private, and then formulate a plan to rid the forum from the "outsiders" perspective. Not only this, but a creative one at that. It allows you to criticize, and demoralize someone without getting your hands dirty.

I am sorry that your worlds have been tainted by words that don't seem to match your own. Don't get too wound up. It is only an internet forum..But oh yes, an internet forum that is more popular than magazines and newspapers. I am not sure wether you are promoting, or degrading Chinese Martial Arts..Oh that must be because of my "ignorance." No wonder you guys are so uptight You guys are the light! while everyone else is just ignorant and anyone who makes a comment on your forum, that is not 100% Wahnam material (not just me..) is immediately jumped upon. And I can name a few of them..But then again it is not worthy causing more disturbance. I am surprised that Buddha himself does not descend from the heavens himself and come to praise your system for its superiority over everything else!

From what I have seen and heard from various other people/sources, I am only saying what was at the back of their toungues . But even all of them have advised me to stop beating a dead horse. I never wanted to say any of this, nor should I have had to. But apparently you guys just continue. And it will continue even after I'm gone...How noble..

I'm done, good night and good luck :)


Jordan Francis Sifu Jordan Francis
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
25th September 2006

Baguamonk1,

You seem to think that this thread is meant to attack you personally. This is certainly not true. We actually wish you well. For example, like my kung fu brothers who have made their feelings known in another thread, I am very happy to know that your mother recovered from cancer. Congratulations to both you and your mother, and please convey my regards to her.

Nevertheless, wishing you well should not be confused with my duty as a Shaolin Wahnam instructor to dispel ignorance and untruths for the benefits of hundreds of our students as well as other forum members reading this discussion forum, especially when you wrote as if you were an authority, yet you posts contain a lot of ignorance and untruths.

You have repeatedly accused us that our comments are said out of context. This is another glaring example of untruth, and it also substantiates our belief that you lack mental clarity. Your ignorance and lack of clarity are the two themes of this thread. If you think we are mistaken, you should provide evidence to debunk us, but instead your subsequent posts in this and other threads continue to give weight to these two themes of your ignorance and lack of clarity.

All my comments are based on what you said. The quotes are not taken in bits here and there, but are taken completely from your post in question. There is nothing more in context than this. On the other hand, you merely mentioned your opinions but never substantiate them with evidence or with quotes from us.

There are so many examples in your various posts showing ignorance and untruths as well as lack of mental clarity. But instead of highlighting all of them, or even some of them, which may make this thread longer than it should be, I shall continue giving evidence from the post in question.

Further examples showing ignorance and untruths will follow.

__________________
Jordan Francis
Shaolin Wahnam Bristol / Bournemouth
http://wahnam.blog.com/

LINKS

Dispelling Ignorance and Untruths: A Case Study of Baguamonk1's Posts

Courses and Classes