MISTAKING PRESSING FOR YIELDING
Golden Cockerel Stands Solitarily. Click here for more details of the Golden Cockerel.
The following discussion is reproduced from the thread A Discussion on Yielding started in the Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Forum on 14th February 2006. The name of a main contributor to this thread is removed as requested by him, and is replaced by “Challenger” or any term appropriate to the occasion. As the discussion is long, it is presented here in parts.
Joko
Shaolin Wahnam Indonesia
3rd April 2006
Counter to 'Carry Tiger Back to Mountain'
Dear Sihing,
My earlier post (#272) in this thread was about the counter to 'Carry Tiger Back to Mountain". The pattern is called "Black Bear Sink Hips".
Referring to the pictures, in order to counter Simon's throwing attack I would move my back foot backward and at the same time sink my stance lower into Horse Riding Stance. If Simon did not know the counter, he would have been felled down.
Regards,
Joko
__________________
kai xin... hao yunqi...
Be happy n joyful... and share the joy with others
Sifu Marcus Santer
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
4th April 2006
Hello everyone,
Challenger wrote:
Quote
“Thanks for the invitation, but there's really nothing much to share.”I'm sure that's not true but I respect his decision to not share his secrets with us here.
Suppose while engaged in combat, your opponent exploits an opportunity and throws you using the pattern “Carry Tiger Back to Mountain”. What would you do?
If you were to "move forward into the attack" or express "dynamic forward motion both energetically and physically" (as Challenger advocated), you would be adding to the momentum of the throw, making his throw easier. In other words you would be helping your opponent to throw you onto the ground.
This can be verified easily. Get a training partner grip you as shown in the pictures demonstrated by Simon and Mark in the earlier post. Or get a judoka attempts a hip throw or a leg sweep on you. Now you move forward into the attack, and see what happens.
Instead of moving your body forward, shift your body slightly backward and to your right, and simultaneously lift right leg over and beyond his right leg. This is yielding, or neutralizing, and it effectively overcomes his leverage-advantage, with which he throws you. Next, "float" his arms at his elbows. This is deflecting, which not only releases his grip on you but also prevents him from striking you. Then strike his ribs with your left knee. This is countering, often striking him while he is trying to recover his balance due to the unsuccessful movement of his throw.
The yielding, deflecting and countering should be executed in a smooth flow. This Tai Chi Chuan pattern is called Golden Cockerel Stands Solitarily .
You can find an example of this technique here (Joko, once again you demonstrate your grasp of the Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan material, as "Black Bear Sinks Hips is included in this combat sequence) and here. Tomorrow I will provide pictures of me and Simon demonstrating.
Hopefully on Thursday I will be able to demonstrate how we would counter this throw using Shaolin Kung Fu. I am certain that most Shaolin Wahnam students know the answer to this question. If you do I invite you to post your answer. If necessary I will give a clue tomorrow.
Kind regards
Marcus
Another effective counter against "Carry Tiger Back to Mountain" is "Black Bear Sinks Hip". Click here for more details of the Black Bear.
Mblohm
Shaolin Wahnam USA
4th April 2006
Dear Siheng Marcus,
I have been practicing three counters to this felling technique. The one that is most like “Golden Cockerel Stands Solitarily” is "Yellow Bird Plays with Water". (I actually didn't know the name was "Yellow Bird Plays with Water", I had to look it up on the review pages.)
Sincerely,
Mark
LeeWeiJoo
Shaolin Wahnam Malaysia
5th April 2006
Dear Siheng Marcus,
The Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan pattern Carry Tiger Back to Mountain most resembles the Shaolin Wahnam Kung Fu pattern Felling Tree with Roots . The counter would be Butterfly Palms in Unicorn Stance . To me this is a really profound and subtle counter. By shifting and sinking into the Unicorn Stance, you neutralize the leverage used against you and simultaneously use your butterfly palms to unlock the hold. Then you use the palms to push him off or you fa jing.
With Shaolin Salute,
Lee Wei Joo
Sifu Marcus Santer
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
5th April 2006
I would like to give credit to Joko, Mblohm and Lee Wei Joo. Your posts are very good and you continue to bring much benefit to readers of this thread.
Lee Wei Joo, you are correct. Combat Sequence 13 contains the technique we would use in Shaolin Kung F to overcome the attempt to throw us. I remember the first time I was taught this counter I was immediately impressed with its simplicity.
Simon is bringing his camera to the London class tonight, so I shall make sure we capture this sequence on film. But for those of you who can't wait, you can find the details for Combat Sequence 13 here . Readers interested in this and the other Shaolin Kung Fu combat sequences have many opportunities to learn them from Sifu directly. Off the top of my head there is a Shaolin Kung Fu intensive in Germany in April and the UK Summer Camp in July . Please note that despite running 2 Shaolin Kung Fu courses at the Summer Camp last year we still had to turn people away. So if you're interested, book early to avoid disappointment.
I would like to invite all those who have attended Sifu's intensive Tai Chi Chuan course and intensive Shaolin Kung Fu course to share their experiences here so that we may continue to get a deeper understanding. Here at Shaolin Wahnam we like to talk from our personal experience as clearly demonstrated on so many occasions by Joko. Now it's your turn
I have been advised that Sifu's schedule means that there will be no Intensive Tai Chi Chuan course this year. But do not worry, there is still Summer Camp 2006 here in the UK. If your interested you can read full details here , please don't miss out on this opportunity which may not come our way again (I know this thread has certainly whetted my appetite to practice Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan ). Amongst the many other benefits, participants on this course will be able to find out from their own experience whether they can apply the "Yielding" technique mentioned on this thread in 3 seconds or less.
Hopefully I will have time to post the Golden Cockerel picture sequence that Simon and I did before I have to leave for London later this afternoon. I will do my best, but I'm on Ollie duty so I'm not making any promises
Kind regards
Marcus
Lex
Shaolin Wahnam Wales
5th April 2006
Yielding to the Drunken Boxer!
I am responding to the request for responses from participants of this years' Intensive Tai Chi Chuan course. (Didn't want my friend Joko to get lonely )
Whilst recently in Edinburgh training with Darryl Siheng and several other Wahnam students, my friend and kung fu senior Jonny was kind enough to compliment me on my swallowing and yielding techniques. This was particularly gratifying coming from him as Jonny specializes in the Dragon style which also utilizes such techniques. One technique that we practised was the use of Green Dragon Shoots Pearl (similar to the technique pictured in Marcus Siheng's post here .
This was used to counter a mid level roundhouse kick to the ribs. In order to defeat this kick we actually moved forward, closer to the kicker's centre and prevented the kick from gaining momentum by placing a hand on the upper thigh early on in the attack.
This was accompanied by a simultaneous palm to the chest. My partner at the time (Drunken Boxer Paul!) noticed that although he felt a lot of force from the palm strike, he felt I could be stronger in my deflection of the kick. Yet when I tried to improve on this we noticed the technique became quite physical' and external, leaving me with aching arms. This clearly couldn't be right.
Darryl siheng later remedied the situation when he pointed out that the force from the kick was actually defeated by the strong palm to the chest which follows the momentum of the kicker and disrupts their root. So I was making an error by changing my technique and attempting to push against the force of the kick. Doing so had removed the element of yielding and prevented me from flowing with my partner.
Knowing this, we returned to the way in which we were practising the technique previously, and it began to feel like a powerful flowing spiral. This was quite a revelation to me as it was the first time I saw that yielding could also be used in an advancing attack and that I didn't always have to give ground in order to yield and keep myself safe.
Anyone else from Class of 2006 had any interesting 'hua' experiences lately?
Alex
__________________
"Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again;
Though lovers be lost love shall not;
And death shall have no dominion."
Challenger
a grandmaster of another school
6th April 2006
Kudos to you, Alex, and to Sifu Collett.
This is what I am talking about when I refer to advancing into the attack to achieve defensive advantage accompanied by simultaneous counter-strike victory. This is 'economy of motion' at its finest. Congrats to both you and your Sifu for your 'high level' kung-fu applications!
Warm regards.
Challenger
Drunken Boxer
Shaolin Wahnam Ireland
6th April 2006
I can confirm emphatically what Alex said about using Green Dragon Shoots Pearl.
When I kicked I felt excellent force from his raised hand to my chest, much more than enough to stop me in my tracks.
In comparison I felt very little force from the lower hand on the kicking leg. So I pointed this out encouraging Alex to put more force in this hand, which turned out to be the totally wrong thing to do! He actually had it right in the beginning, so I kept quiet after that!
As I understand it now, the reason there was no force on the kicking leg was because the kicking force was neutralized by the push to the chest, which was so good that often I could barely get the kicking motion started, let alone put force into it.
I must admit till now I haven't thought of this move as 'yielding' - so I'll keep reading and learning.
Another example of yielding (and other Taiji principles) was illustrated beautifully by Pete (Taichipete).
As I tried to strike, he deflected the strike, neutralizing the force but 'sticking' to the arm till the force was spent, then delivered a beautiful, forceful but controlled Taiji push.
I was smiling from the heart at seeing my brothers put these Taiji principles into action.
"Green Dragon Shoots Pearl" is an effective counter against a knee jab or a whirlwind kick. Click here to veiw a video clip of the Green Dragon.
Sifu Ronan Sexton
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
6th April 2006
Hi Alex,
The technique you mentioned wasn't yielding. It was a pressing counter. You got to the attacker and neutralized their kick before they managed to attack, so yielding wasn't necessary. What you were practicing was an example of starting later but arriving first and no defence, direct attack. In your case the attack was the defense.
Best wishes
Ronan
Sifu Jeffrey Segal
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam Australia
6th April 2006
Nice but not yielding
Hello Everybody, I agree with Ronan (can you remember when we had some fun with a similar technique in Brighton a few years ago?). This is not an example of yielding as I understand it.
Best regards,
__________________
Jeffrey Segal
Shaolin Wahnam Australia
Sifu Andrew Barnett
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland
6th April 2006
At the risk of being accused of patting my brothers on the back, I must say I agree with both Ronan and Jeffrey --- this is not what I consider to be yielding.
Andrew
__________________
Andrew Barnett
,br>
Shaolin Wahnam Switzerland
http://www.shaolin-wahnam.ch/
Lex
Shaolin Wahnam Wales
6th April 2006
Hmmm, OK. I did wonder myself if this technique would technically be classed as yielding. Would anyone care to try and define yielding in one sentence? I thought it was any movement where the defender defeated the attack by following his movement, but I would be grateful for a refined definition.
Alex
__________________
"Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again;
Though lovers be lost love shall not;
And death shall have no dominion."
LeeWeiJoo
Shaolin Wahnam Malaysia
6th April 2006
Hello Alex,
I will add my two cents here, but I'm hoping that my Wahnam brothers and sisters will add or correct me if I am wrong. I am fairly new to the concept of yielding.
In this case the attack, the roundhouse kick, never finished executing. You pressed forward to directly attack Johnny before he can completely execute the kick.
If you were to yield, you would have let the roundhouse kick completely executes itself, and then counter just as his kicking leg is withdrawing or his force is spent. A good swallowing application here would be Low Stance Single Whip. The benefits of using Low Stance Single Whip against kicks have been much lauded in our forum.
I would like to congratulate you on your training, it is progressing very nicely You are developing good internal force.
With Shaolin Salute,
Lee Wei Joo
Sifu Marcus Santer
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
6th April 2006
Hello Lex,
Here's a definition of Yielding that I hope will answer your question:
Quote
“Would anyone care to try and define yielding in one sentence?”
The technique of yielding is a continuous process in 3 parts (a) yielding, (b) turning the opponents momentum back to himself and (c) going into the opponent and striking him if required.
Hope that helps, Lex.
Kind regards
Marcus
TaiChiPete
Shaolin Wahnam Scotland
6th April 2006
Yeiling using Green Dragon
Alex
An example of using the same pattern (Green Dragon Shoots Pearl) against the same attack (wirlwind kick) in a yielding manner can be found here in Sifu's video clips . Rather than the "no defense direct counter", the clip shows yielding by sitting back out of the way brushing the kick away and then countering. A good example of yielding and of the versatility of Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan!
I've tried them both in a friendly environment and I'm not sure which I prefer
- I found using the direct approach very effective but it took some time to get the timing and spacing correct and I felt it would be difficult for me to apply against someone who had excellent kicks
- Using the yielding appoach I found it easier to get out of the way of a kick but found the counter less effective or more difficult to apply.
. Anyone else tried both these defenses to a whirlwind kick?
Pete
Lex
Shaolin Wahnam Wales
6th April 2006
Thanks for the link Pete
Now you mention it, I remember that Sifu actually demonstrated that very technique on me when we were in Malaysia. It was of course very effective.
Alex
__________________
"Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again;
Though lovers be lost love shall not;
And death shall have no dominion."
Joko
Shaolin Wahnam Indonesia
6th April 2006
Definition
Quote
“The technique of yielding is a continuous process in 3 parts: (a) yielding, (b)turning the opponents momentum back to himself and (c) going into the opponent and striking him if required.”
The definition is excellent!
May I submit an opinion? In mathematics, we cannot put the same subject at the right side of the equation, in this case:
a = a + b + c,
in which a = yielding,
or written in full:
Yielding = yielding + turning the opponents momentum back + going into the opponent and strike. One might argue: we have to define again the yielding in (a) into (a)yielding + (b) + (c) .... and so on, which will never end.
Oh, but here this is Kung Fu, not mathematics.
Is it not better to express yielding in (a) as (a) avoiding the attack, so the definition will become
The technique of yielding is a continuous process in 3 parts: (a) avoiding the attack, (b) turning the opponent's momentum back to himself and (c) going into the opponent and striking him if required.
Thanks,
Joko
__________________
kai xin... hao yunqi...
Be happy n joyful... and share the joy with others
Sifu Marcus Santer
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
7th April 2006
LOL! Joko, you got me there!
How about this as a one-sentence definition: The underlying principle of Yielding is to first neutralize, then attack.
Better?
I've prepared the picture sequence of Simon and I performing the Shaolin Kung Fu counter to the Tai Chi Chuan throw “Carry Tiger Back To Mountain” (called “Fell Tree with Roots” in Shaolin Kung Fu). I will post it for you tomorrow.
Kind regards
Marcus
LINKS