THE REALITY OF CHI AND INTERNAL FORCE
The following discussion is reproduced from the thread What is Genuine, Traditional Taijiquan? started in the Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Forum on 5th June 2006."Anyone who practices Shaolin Wahnam Kungfu, Shaolin Wahnam Taijiquan, or Shaolin Wahnam Chi Kung correctly is consciously and consistently working with energy, or chi, and internal force. Not merely with air, or muscles and joints, but with chi. Energy, that is transmittable and receivable even from a distance, and has a material reality although it is normally not visible to the naked eye — much like the air we breathe."
-- Sifu Markus Kahila
Taiji Teacher, USA
8th June 2006
It is an impossibility to see skill in static postures or even execution.
Tai chi fighting has never existed and never will. As long as I can see expression like peng, lu, ji an, etc in application I can be sure it is genuine
Sifu Ronan Sexton
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
8th June 2006
Nice thread Rob.Originally Posted by Yeniseri:
"Tai chi fighting has never existed and never will"
You say this like you're quite an authority on the subject. Are you? That's quite a sweeping statement. How are you so sure of not only the past, but the future too?
Are you saying that no one has ever used Taijiquan for fighting? I don't get what you mean by "Tai Chi fighting"
Either way, just because you've never seen or experienced something, does that mean it doesn't, hasn't and never will exist?
9th June 2006
If Sifu Wong invented his own style, incorporating the best of what he knows, then I would learn it, and it wouldn't matter that it isn't traditional. I would know that it can bring me to exceedingly high levels because it's creator had himself reached an exceedingly high level. As a matter of fact, Sifu did invent WahNam Tai Chi Chuan. I can point to other examples of masters changing styles to suit student's needs.
Interestingly, new is often better in MA. Sifu's style may be better than the styles of older masters, because it is geared towards modern needs, what happens in modern fights, etc. Or by better I mean better for me. I think MAs have tended to get better over the years. People have always created their own styles (look at Tai Chi as an example), and the person is always ultimately more important.
Shaolin Wahnam USA
9th June 2006
Originally Posted by KungFuJoe:
"Interestingly, new is often better in MA. Sifu's style may be better than the styles of older masters, because it is geared towards modern needs, what happens in modern fights, etc."
I don't think Wahnam Taijichuan is better than what masters taught in the past. I recall Sifu saying that his level comes nowhere near what Yang Lu Chan achieved. It is because modern Taijichuan has been watered down so much (as evidenced by absurd claims that Taijichuan forms are not for fighting) that Sifu teaches it. I think Sifu is in a unique position to restore the essence to Taijichuan because he has reached such a high level in Shaolin-chuan. Taijichuan comes from Shaolin. Masters of Xingyichuan, Baguazhang or other internal arts (not to mention external martial arts) wouldn't be in such a position.
Assistant Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam Scotland
8th June 2006
I am enjoying reading this thread very much, nice work Rob Sisook.
One thing that stuck out for me was the way Kaitan described his Shen-Fa. He talked a lot about it being a representation of the internal mechanics, but he did not talk about energy flow (a main characteristic of Tai Chi Chuan), he talked about core muscles etc.
We know in Shaolin Wahnam that the forms have been crystallized by the past masters the way they are because of many factors. Two major factors are the advantages they present in combat and secondly to allow the optimum energy flow for health, vitality and combat efficiency.m
Therefore if an exponent is using internal force then his external form will represent this, and when sparring it will be clearly defined as Tai Chi Chuan like the photos of Rob Sisook. I personally did not see this in Kaitans footage, he may be using his core muscles very well but this is not using chi.
Jonny Say Shaolin Wahnam Scotland
"A Kung Fu knight was a free, happy Kung Fu Expert, always kind to the old and young and sometimes amorous with unattached and willing damsels. He appreciated poetry and good wine, enjoyed comfortable living whenever he could although he was often penniless because he gave away money to the poor, and was always ready to help the oppressed and suffering."
-- Sigung, The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu
Taiji Teacher, USA
9th June 2006
To my mind, energy flow is a modern embellishment and has nothing to do with taijiquan. Nevertheless a secondary by product (to my mind)Being 'internal', it manifests in each person accodingly therefore even a non taijiquan person has this energy flow also.
Any 'relaxation response' can generate this hyperemia to induce a type of euphoric (endorphin response) feeling but it should be something that becomes natural and not seeking to generate it. There may be different subjective levels of it but it is still there!
Sifu Markus Kahila
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam Finland
10th June 2006
These days many are coming to our forum to tell their frank opinions about chi, internal force, and traditional Chinese martial arts. They're very welcome to do so (provided that they display a certain level of respect and general courtesy), because it is beneficial to us as well: As a result we can very often have inspiring and lively discussion here based on these claims. This is why we have always welcomed guests here and valued their contributions.
Regarding the topic at hand: Making statements at this forum such as that chi doesn't exist, or that internal force is just a manifestation of muscle/joint co-ordination, is a bit like going to a yachting club to try to convince sailors that sailing has nothing to do with the wind. It is both very amusing, and also serves to remind us how lucky we are to be practicing the real thing.
Anyone who practices Shaolin Wahnam Kungfu, Shaolin Wahnam Taijiquan, or Shaolin Wahnam Chi Kung correctly is consciously and consistently working with energy, or chi, and internal force. Not merely with air, or muscles and joints, but with chi. Energy, that is transmittable and receivable even from a distance, and has a material reality although it is normally not visible to the naked eye — much like the air we breathe.
The same goes also for practitioners of genuine, traditional Taijiquan. We do this every day, so insisting that we actually don't is very funny, and frankly, a bit pointless on your behalf. But as mentioned, your comments are always valued here. Please continue making them, even (and especially) the unintentionally funny ones!
Chuckling from the heart,
Shaolin Wahnam Finland
1: Friendly Sparring?
2: And Now You Back Down
3: Shen-Fa or Body-Movement and Other Principles of Genuine, Traditional Taijiquan
4: Calling a Cow a Horse
5: The Reality of Chi and Internal Force
6: Could Yang Lu Chan Defeat Modern Ultimate Fighting Arts Fighters
7: Chi and Internal Force in Genuine, Traditional Taijiquan
8: It is Amazing some Instructors would Miss an Opportunity than Learn from another Master
9: On Principles, Stances, Force and Age in Taijiquan
10: In Genuine Kungfu, Size, Weight, Age and Sex are Not Decisive Factors in Combat
11: How to Improve your Mental Clarity
12: Boxing is Boxing, Taijiquan is Taijiquan
13: The Benefits Students Get from Kaitan's Taijiquan and from Wahnam Taijiquan
14: Harmonious Chi has a place Everywhere, and Internal Force is Real
15: Some Interesting Questions on Internal Force
16: Internal Force is an Essential Part of Genuine, Traditional Taijiquan
17: Is Kaitain's Taijiquan or Wahnam Taijiquan genuine, traditional Taijiquan
18: Cloud Hands, Silk Reeling and Grasping Sparrow's Tail